EX-SAI DEVOTEE SPEAKS OUT CONVINCINGLY ABOUT
SAI BABA SEX
In three lengthy
on-line TV interviews (at the US portal blip.tv.com) the former Sai
Baba follower, Ullrich Zimmermann, gives a thorough description of his
experiences with Sathya Sai Baba. This delivers a major blow to any
wishful doubts entertained by the faithful that Sathya Sai Baba practices
sex on male devotees.
Ullrich's frank and detailed account of his experiences and his interpretations of them may well be of help to some of the many others who (as he also asserts) have been through similar sexual experiences with Sathya Sai Baba, whether of lesser or greater degree.
There is a transcript of the most revealing part two where he tells of the private interview and Sai Baba's sexual acts. Then a summary plus partial transcript of part three, where he reflects back on his experiences and the Sathya Sai cult .
The full-length videos were posted by blip.tv but are no longer available there (see wayback machine scans Part One (introductory) - Part Two (the main account of sex etc.) - Part Three (reflections). The image below is copied from blip.tv's web site.
Ullrich's natural honesty is unmistakable as he tells of his whole Sai Baba experience - including the difficult and sensitive subject of oral sex. He, like others who have come forward, cannot be praised sufficiently for his bravery and adherence to truth and decency. As his interviewer says, these revelations will come as a major shock to those Sai devotees who watch the video, not least because of the openness and entirely unassuming character of Ullrich in his self-evaluations and his fearless answers to questions put to him.
Ullrich Zimmermann points out that there is a big difference between a 'guru' and a 'teacher' - where gurus unempower their followers and rob them of freedom, teachers (as to spirituality) always leave those who seek their advice to make up their own minds and achieve their own way in life. Ullrich followed Sai Baba as a guru, but is now very clear that he no longer wants Sai Baba or any other guru, even though there may have been some temporary benefits from such devotion.
Note that the International Chairman of the Sathya Sai Organization, Dr. M. Goldstein (see 'The Secret Swami'), denies that any such thing has ever taken place. This denial is again seen for what it is, a sheer and - for a doctor pretending expertise in sexual abuse - a despicable cover-up of facts. There is full proof that these abuses were known to Goldstein and many other top leaders, not least from Dr. Hislop, whose infamous circular letters to US organization leaders tried to cover up the same kind of allegations in the early 1980s. Dr. G. Venkarataman, the second-in-command of the cover-up by the Prashanthi Council whose closeness to Sai Baba and position of authority gives him every opportunity to check out the facts about Sai Baba's large scale homosexual activities that Ullrich [and others] say are well-known to many ashram residents. That Sai Baba escapes conviction is due to the impossibility of charging him formally elsewhere than in India, and there he has virtual control of the High Court of Andhra Pradesh and the Supreme Court of India through his devotees who preside over them, fully backed by his devotees - the current Indian PM, President and Home Minister! His totally unaccountable Sathya Sai Organization could not be sued in the US, not being registered as an organization (instead it uses a bookshop as a front for its activities)-
In the first part of this series, Ullrich Zimmermann tells how he came to Sathya Sai Baba and got his first interview. This is of more interest to those who have not been to the ashram. For those who have direct experience of Sathya Sai Baba through personal contact, devotion or in trying to practice his teachings, the first interview will seem too drawn out (playing time up to 1 hour). Ullrich gives a detailed description of how he - and many others no doubt - feel and experience visiting thge ashrams and Sai Baba so as to bring out the way in which - as a keen devotee - he was already largely indoctrinated already, and in a state of nervous expectation etc. He also shows how easily he then believed many things - was indoctrinated like most other devotees - before he even met Sai Baba. However, the conclusions he arrived at - some considerable time after his two sexual contacts - shows a quite other and much more critical perspective (stated in Part Three) .
In Part Two of the series (playing
time over 30 mins), Ullrich tells - with a very natural frankness and
believability - of his first experiences with Sai Baba in the inner
interview room in which he was induced to engage in oral sex (fellatio)
on Sai Baba on two occasions, though he was never gay and says he had
always felt the idea of being forced into gay sex "the ultimate
says he did not feel sexually
abused because he had total faith in Sai Baba (as God Incarnate)
and trusted he would always
do what was best for him. So he went along with the 'wishes he couldn't
this was a 'divine blessing' or merely sexual abuse for Sai Baba's own
satisfaction is for readers and the world at large to judge. Ullrich
attributes the uplift of spirits some time after it was over to some
kind of Tantric energy transmission. However, other explanations do
come easily to mind -
such as the release of great psychological tensions engendered throughout
and the well-known 'divine salvation'
enthusiasm and the ensuing 'spiritual honeymoon' effect, which Sai followers
get after achieving an interview so much yearned for and for so long
(but which is a temporary phase, as Ullrich honestly tells, lasting
only for some weeks in his case).
Not surprisingly, Ullrich was often visibly uncomfortable while relating about this with hesitations and pauses - and some confusion still as to how to understand it all. However, he also seems quite convinced about it having had a spiritual aspect. It is noteworthy that Ullrich tells how the second time Sai Baba got him to suck his penis, he stopped after a short while because he felt too awkward. While withdrawing he noticed some sudden light effect coming from Sai Baba's penis. This seems to be a main reason why Ullrich believes there was some kind of Tantric transfer involved. The matter remains impenetrable, for it could also have been caused by the tension created by the nervously-anticipated awkward situation, affecting his eyes, or possibly having some other psycho-physical cause.
Since the live video interview is very long, transcripts of portions of some of Ullrich's statements - which are particularly important from the viewpoint of the exposé of Sai Baba's secret and controversial doings - are given here verbatim, and without comments. They are taken out of the tediously long and involved context, which is nevertheless important for better understanding his standpoint in those interviews, (a full transcript may be added here later). He claims that his relation to Sai Baba brought about a change in somehow 'opening up' his personality. In some contrast to this assertion, he also says that it did not make him more genuinely spiritually liberated or give any 'God-realisation'. He no longer believes Sai Baba can do this. Ullrich's views may well have changed since he made the recording in 2000.
"So when he says
that 'always thinking about girls' and I know and I don't want
to... ... he says "Oh. Don't worry" ... ... and he
materialises an oil and he lifts up my T-shirt and he puts that
here." (he describes the places as "on the kundalini
"Then he kissed me on my mouth..." "It was awkward... and it was also not disgusting."
"He is looking at me and I know - knew - in my mind that he wanted me to suck his penis."
"and he took my hand... ... to his genitals and it felt through the robe like a female with hair - there was no penis and he took my hand again and it was the male and 'Suck finger, suck male'..."
"So he pushes me down, lifts up his robe..." "His penis is... ....like from a child, no hair, small."
"And I took his penis in my mouth... ...it was erect.... I had it in my mouth for a while and it was not like doing bliss, it was not like doing a big job or so - at least there was some movement but it was not like a big sexual act or so, and I didn't feel ejaculation in my mouth... can't give the time to the minute, maybe one and a half..."
Asked by his interviewer whether Sai Baba ejaculated, Ullrich replied: "I didn't feel that in my mouth. If you had asked me then I would have said 'no' but... I think he did." "... really very quick. Robe up and the interview was over."
Interviewer: "Well, did you tell
anyone about this, your mother?"
Ullrich: Yes. I did. .. I was in the taxi back to Bangalore... she had also heard rumours and asked me what happened but she saw me in this happy state and so I told her.. I mean she didn't experience... view that as abuse at all. She's a Sai Baba follower and she trusts. And of course, having such an experience I wanted to have answers. After that, talking to other people who are living in the ashram and who are there for years with my knowledge and know about these things to happen anyway - it's happening on a really big scale."
Interviewer: I mean, it happens every day with some - or - he has a lot of followers so he's always doing interviews and...
Ullrich: Yeah, but I only say my experience and that is I know - I know one person in eye-to-eye who has had that happen to him, also a young German, and I talked to another person who knew a lot of other people - I mean, I talked to a lot of people...
Interviewer: But they also thought
it was a good experience, or some of them were angry?
Ullrich: They were not in anger. I mean, they're still there. (editor's note: i.e. in year 2000) They are just confused and for some of them it presses the button more than others but for me the bottom line was what I got, it is white Tantra.
Apropos Ullrich's information about the 'really big scale' of Sai Baba's sexual advances and the acceptance of this by so many ashram residents, it is interesting to see the comments on how the news of such things affected the followers in UK in 2000 after the David Bailey news first broke there as written by the former President of the UK Organization and Central Coordinator for UK and Ireland.
PART 3 - SUMMARY-CUM-TRANSCRIPT
OF THE INTERVIEW WITH ULLRICH ZIMMERMANN
Editor's note: So that Ullrich's words come across as clearly as possible, the text is partly summarized to exclude asides, verbal stumbles and some awkward phrasing in English etc., but with all his important statements reproduced verbatim within apostrophes.
Ullrich speaks firstly about the search for solutions to his spiritual desire, having known all the time that "it is something in me and not something delivered by the Church and the standard settings."
Having rejected Sai Baba as a guru (already 7 years ago) he says that he knows "the difference between a truthful teacher and guru The useful energy I had when I started my path, for example with Sathya Sai Baba being lifted up but being only lifted up and then from my sincere perspective on what is happening down there to be empowered to empower him."
Ullrich speaks about playing one's
part as a devotee, which requires "total focus on his person"
which involves obtaining some power from him and being changed
as Ullrich reports he was but, as he then says: "I also
I was hooked with Sai baba, there was no freedom
whatsoever, there was no acknowledgment of me - (no) giving
the knowledge that I am actually God
that everything that
is coming out of me I can generate." Sai Baba "in
no way delivered how you can actually implement that in your
"What I wanted was a true spiritual change, otherwise I would never have done that. That was the reason I went there, that was the reason I had the physical experience with him I did have. And there was a change but it was, for me, confusing."
Ullrich thought that: "If he
has an interest in you, if you are a potential powerful battery
then you will get something, o.k.? But you won't get what you
are going for
your major craving for God."
Ullrich believes instead: "You can only do it yourself, by hard work, by being impeccable in every life situation. And you can do that within the Sai Baba setting and some people do that, but you are always utterly connected to Sai Baba."
Ullrich insists that it is "not about getting personal liberation... it is about you being part of an energy game, being abused - however you put it - for me, because I really don't know what Sai Baba is, but he is certainly not somebody who comes from his heart. He's somebody who is coming from a power, and it is all about power. It is not about you being really empowered, it is about you being empowered to be a powerful feeder."
Therefore, Ullrich says: "You in your everyday life are the creator of your own reality... ...ninety-nine per cent that has to come from me. I made this video ... to make clear that you don't gain that inner spiritual connection with Sai Baba - or any guru for that matter."
Ullrich says he doesn't believe that Sai Baba was so low as to do the sex only for his own satisfaction. Alan Steinfeld comments:"He could still be that low". Ullrich says "O.K., well, maybe he is, but that is not my conception of it." Then also "It's all about power and I do see that very, very clearly."
Ullrich reports that his spiritual teacher (Ramtha) told him twice, "You will teach Sai Baba a lesson." Ullrich continues: "I do this interview now because I think it might help people... it is probably a way to teach Sai Baba a lesson."
"Also, the people I know who are really followers... these are powerless people" and he holds that to keep them powerless as Sai Baba does is "to have one's own agenda, to have an ulterior motive, not truthful."
Alan Steinfeld: He's so evolved and yet so stuck, is that what you mean?"
Ullrich: "Yes. My understanding of how energy works... a very powerful thing he set forth there. I haven't been there for eight years or something but I talk to people who were there and they say he is getting more and more tired - having no joy in doing it, I experienced this too when I was there."
Ullrich also saw "he had nothing to help all these people. Even though Sai Baba picks out people... it is because they are for his agenda. That is also his undoing in himself. I feel sorry for him"
Alan Steinfeld: Well, what you're
saying then... even though you can materialize, appear in people...
miracles, it doesn't mean you're spiritually evolved?"
Ullrich: "It's just black magic, O.K.? That's just knowledge about certain laws, the ability to gain them. And that's very common in India, there are really unevolved beings that have a certain ability of defying what we consider to be firm, physical laws. And these physical laws are shattered, the threshold from Newton's physics to quantum physics... if you go deeper into any subject.
Summing up, Ullrich says of Sai Baba: "That is not a spiritual path... claiming to be a spiritual leader I would assume he is getting a good livelihood. He helps lots of people but there's an agenda with it. They're waiting to be taken out, and they're really good people, people with integrity (Alan comments:'Sincere seekers!'). It's like people waiting for the end of the world and thinking you will be picked up by an UFO."
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