Full transkript av hele den talte teksten
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FORFØRT en dokumentarisk film av Øjvind Kyrø - for DR TV (Dansk Radio).
1 Intro: (Sanal Edamaruku) SB er en sjarlatan. Han er en utnytter. Han er en juksemaker.
2 En indisk guru vinder millioner af tilhængere verden over.
3 De ser ham udføre mirakler, som en gud. Selv siger han, at han er Gud.
4 En gud, der kan oprejse de døde og helbrede kræft.
5 Blandt guruens tilhængere finnes mange som selv er forbilder.
6 Skuespillerinnen Goldie Hawn og Steven Segal av Hollywood -
7 - Englands hertuginde Fergie og millionæren Isaac Tigrett, som stiftet den internasjonale kjeden Hard Rock kafeer, er eksempler - England’s Duchess of York ’Fergie’ and the millionaire Isaac Tigrett, who started the inbternational chain of Hard Rock Cafes.
8 Bevægelsen vinder udbredelse i Danmark.
9 Forretningsmann Jørgen Trygved, den tidl. Superfors-direktør, og Margrethe Koyto er blandt tilhængerne.
10 Men hundredevis av andre dansker rejser hvert år til
Indien for oppleve guruen. De stråler af forventning
11 Jeg har hørt meget om ham. Det er simpelthen alltså ...det er det største.
12 Hans navn er Sai Baba. His name is Sai Baba -
13 En halvannen meter høy mand, hvis indflydelse er enorm. Både politisk og økonomisk
14 Han omgiver sig med toppolitikere, her Indias premierminister. Han har egen lufthavn og privathospitaler -
15 - betalt af disiplenes pengegaver. Pengene kommer også fra Danmark -
16 - hvor Sai Baba er blitt statsanerkendt som trossamfund.
17 DR har fulgt en gruppe danske tilhængere til Indien til byen -
18 - hvor tusindvis samles for at tilbede Sai Baba
19 Vi går i dette program tæt på guruen og organisationen bag ham.
20 Bag den flotte facade og alle de såkalte mirakler skjuler sig alvorlige anklager.
21 DR har talt med tidligere tilhængere, som i mange år var ledere go hørte til i toppen av Sai Babas organisasjon.
22 De fortæller om svindel og om seksuelt misbrug av unge disipler.
23 Arresødal Slot i Nord Sjaelland. Slottet er netop blevet opkøbt at Sai Baba-bevægelsen for godt 15m. kroner.
24 Bevægelsen vil omdanne slottet til en højskole.
25 Som statsanerkendt trossamfund kan pengegaver til Sai Baba trækkes fra i skat.
26 Så danske skatteydere er med til at betale til den verdensomspennende organisationen
{(HELGE FRIIS)}:-
27 De har overtaget en af de absolutt mest værdifulde ejendomme i byen.
28 Værdifuld er forstået menneskeligt.
29 Det er nemlig byens grundlægger, der har boet i huset.
30 Første gang de dukker op, ved jeg ikke, hvem de er.
31 De vil købe en ejendom under dække af at ville lave en højskole.
32 De fortæller sant sett ikke meget om hvem de er. Alene, at de ikke har forbindelse til Tvind.
33 Først i slutningen af mødet får jeg utlevert en bog med et billede af Sai Baba.
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(LIDVIN VIRKESDAL, reisearrangør) Og velkommen til vårt reisemøte.
34 I Næstved er en gruppe danskere ved at forberede deres rejse.
35 Pris: 10.000 kroner/. Der er fjorten dage til afgang.
(LIDVIN VIRKESDAL) For noen av dere så er det første tur til India. For andre, så har dere vaert der flere ganger tidligere, to og tre of fire og fem ganger, og hva vet jeg. Og det er min turn nr. 50.
36 Mange tilhængere betragter Sai Baba som Gud.
37 Grundet belastende udsagn om Baba har en del fortrudt deres medvirken.
38 Derfor er de sløret på billederne, men det gælder ikke alle.
Therefore some of the pictures are masked, but not all of them.
39 Kommer vi til at møde Sai Baba? Vil han se os?
(LIDVIN VIRKESDAL) ”Ah, du kan tro han vil...osv” He says that you sit here and believe that I am not aware of your presence. But he is – totally. If you only knew what I have experienced during my 49 visits down there! I have taken people with cancer to interviews, who have become healthy. I have had people with me who have been blind, who got back their sight on the spot.”
40 Rejselederen, nordmannen Virkesdal, lever af at sende danskere ned til Sai Baba.
41 Selv siger han, at guruen har helbredt ham for kræft.
(LIDVIN VIRKESDAL)”Og jeg visste at fra den ....osv” And I knew from that day onwards that I was completely healthy. I always say that there is no one who travels down there who comes home as the same person.
42 Hvor mange er I? Det bliver spændende.
43 Er du bange for at flyve?
(LIDVIN VIRKESDAL)”Aldri. Av den enkle grunn at Baba...osv”
Never, for the simple reason that Baba is with us on our trip in any case. The reason for this is to do with a twin-engined Boeing 137 in 1997 in South America. It lost power in one motor, and a Boeing 137 can fly with one motor left. The problem was that the other motor also stopped, and then it goes only one way, down. But one of the stewardesses was a Sai Baba devotee and she called on him. Just after that they could see Sai Baba in the clouds beyond the wing of the airplane. The first motor then started, and then the other, and Baba was with the plane in the clouds for 20 minutes. Everyone saw it. There is Baba in the clouds. ((shows picture))
44 Vi er i den sydlige Indien i byen Puttaparthi -
45 - som er hovedsædet for Sai Baba og hans bevægelse.
46 Puttaparthi var en gang en lille landsby. I dag er her konstant mellom 10-20.000 disciple.
47 Ved særlige højtider samles over en million tilhængere i byen.
48 To ganger om dagen fylder disciplene gaderne, når de kommer ud fra tempelområdet, det såkalte ashram.
49 Mandlige disciple skal vaere kledt i hvidt, og kvinderne skal ha tildækkede skuldre og ben.
50 Alt her i Puttaparthi handler om Sai Baba og hans forskjellige budskaber om kærlighed og fred.
51 I gaderne blomstrer turistindustrien. Her er masser af butikker fylt med souvenirs. 52. Her kan man købe en cd indsunget af guruen selv.
53 Prikkerne her markerer Sai Baba-organisationens centre som finnes over det meste av verden.
54 Anslået er der omkring 30 millioner tilhængere.
55 For tilh. pengegaverne har Sai Baba skaffet værdier for som ansåles til mer enn 15 milliarder.
56 Han har bygget bl.a. dette privathospital.
57 Hospitalet blev for nyligt indviet av India’s premierminister –
58 - og fremhæves av tilhengerne som et eksempel på Sai Babas gode arbejde.
59 Indenfor er man ikke i tvivl om, hvem patienterne skal takke.
60 I forvejen havde Sai Baba opført et andet hospital med dyrt utstry
61 - til transplantationer og hjerteoperationer.
62 Han har også egen lufthavn med fast ruteforbindelse til Bombay, Indias største by.
63 Her er et planetarium, en musikskole, gymnasier og højere læreanstalter, fortrinnsvis for drenge og unge menn.
64 Neden for guruens museum ligger ashramet -
65 - templet, hvor Sai Baba bor og viser sig for sine tilhængere.
66 I templet udfører Sai Baba de mirakler som beviser hans guddommelighed.
67 Ud af hans hånd kommer ure 00:11:45:23 00:11:51:03
og smykker og den hellige aske -
Out of his hands come watches, jewellry and holy ash, so-called ’vibhuti’ -
68 - som han påstår helbreder 00:11:51:06 00:11:57:05
disciplene for dødelige sygdomme.
- which he claims cures disciple of mortal illnesses.
69 Tilhængere har skrevet 00:11:59:24 00:12:04:06
breve med deres innerste ønsker.
Followers have written their deepest wishes in letters
70 De håber, at Sai Baba modtager 00:12:04:09 00:12:09:23
brevet og opfylder ønsket.
Which they hope that Sai Baba will receive and fulfil their wishes.
71 DR dokumentaer ville gerne have 00:12:12:15 00:12:16:11
filmet disse såkaldte mirakler.
DR Documentaries would have liked to film these so-called ’miracles’.
72 Sai Babas pressechef 00:12:16:14 00:12:21:09
nægtede DR at filme i ashramet -
Sai Baba’s press officer denied DR the right to film inside the ashram
73 - eller lave andre 00:12:21:12 00:12:24:22
optagelser med Sai Baba.
- or make other recordings of Sai Baba.
74 Dette programs billeder af guruen har vi istedet erhvervet gennem tidligere og nåvaerende disciple.
75 Klokken er fire om morgonen. Danskerne er på vej til tempelområdet -
76 - for at opleve Sai Baba og oppleve sine mirakler.
77 De stod tidligt op for at få plads. Der er 3 timer til, guruen viser sig.
78 Vi ville som sagt gerne have fulgt 00:13:02:19 00:13:08:21
ved porten, men her stoppede adgangen fior DRs kamaraer.
As said, we would liked to have followed them through the gate, but our camera’s entry was barred here.
79 I stedet vendte vi tilbage 00:13:09:24 00:13:16:17
til selskabet om aftenen etter at danskene hadde opplevd SB.
Instead, we returned to the gathering in the evening after the Danes had experienced Sai Baba.
80 Følelsesmæssigt, da han tog mit brev 00:13:16:20 00:13:23:00
og sagde: Please, come forward...
Emotionally, when he took my letter and said: Please, come forward...
81 Alltså, da jeg satte mig ned, 00:13:23:03 00:13:27:15
så kørte det simpelthen op og ned i brystet, og tårene var ved å komme frem for
So when I sat down, things simply went up and down in my chest and tears were about to come,
82 det var så stærkt, 00:13:27:18 00:13:35:09
den øjenkontakt jeg havde med ham.
For it was so powerful, the eye contact I had with him.
83 Men tror jeg likesom at jeg har hatt sånn en hel del som kjorte opp og ned og forbindelsen mellem solar plexus 00:13:35:12 00:13:41:15
og mit hjerte kørte der.
But I believe sort of that I have had a whole lot that went up and down, and the connection between my solar plexus and my heart sort of moved that there.
84 Så absolut en positiv oplevelse. 00:13:41:18 00:13:44:19
Very definitely a positive experience.
85 Og så brev to gange i træk... 00:13:44:22 00:13:49:10
Det er helt fantastisk.
And then letters, two after one another. It is quite fantastic.
LIDVIN Ja, det er fantastisk. Du er meget priviligert.
LIDVIN Yes, it is fantastic. You are very priviliged.
86 Andre fortæller, at de fyldtes 00:13:53:08 00:13:57:22
med glæde, da de så Sai Baba.
Other tell that they were filled with pleasure when they saw Sai Baba.
87 og en siger, hun nu har set Gud. 00:13:58:00 00:14:00:12
and one says, now she has seen God.
{EDEL SAABY – Ekspresjonist}
88 Jeg har været hernede fem gange. 00:14:09:10 00:14:12:01
I have been down here five times.
89 Og den største oplevelse, det 00:14:12:04 00:14:16:02
skete anden gang.
And the greatest experience, that occurred the second time.
90 Jeg lå til middag 00:14:16:05 00:14:19:10
og læste i en kriminal roman.
I was lying down after dinner and reading a crime novel.
91 Den lagde jeg fra mig 00:14:19:13 00:14:23:17
og lukkede øjnene lidt.
I put it aside and half-closed my eyes.
92 Så bølger Sai Baba 00:14:23:20 00:14:30:07
lige ned foran mig med hans ansikt to gange.
Then I saw Sai Baba’s face wavering before me twice.
93 Og så smiler han til mig. 00:14:30:10 00:14:33:11
And he smiled to me.
94 Og jeg lukker øjnene op og i for at se, 00:14:33:14 00:14:39:05
om han stadig er der. Det var han.
And I opened my eyes too, to see whether he was still there. He was.
95 Det har måske været fire sekunder eller sånt noe. 00:14:39:08 00:14:47:06
Det var faktisk den største oplevelse hva jeg har vaeret til.
It probably lasted about four seconds or so. It was in fact the greatest experience I have had.
96 Ingen i den danske gruppe stillede 00:14:48:10 00:14:53:22
spørgsmålstegn ved Sai Baba mens vi fulgte dem i India.
No one in the Danish group questions Sai Baba while we followed them in India.
97 Eneste skeptiker var tilsyneladende 00:14:54:00 00:14:58:24
gruppens yngste på 12 år.
Apparently, the only sceptic was the youngest of the group, 12 years old.
98 (EMIL JACOBSEN, skoleelev) Han betød ikke like så meget for mig, som jeg troede, innen jeg tok av sted. 00:14:59:02 00:15:03:14
(EMIL JACOBSEN, schoolboy) He did not mean quite as much to me as I had thought when I started out.
99 Det var ikke anderledes at se ham i virkeligheden enn det var å se et bild 00:15:03:17 00:15:08:10
Seeing him in reality was no different to seeing a picture of him.
100 Men ti minutter, det er for lidt. 00:15:08:13 00:15:12:23
Han kunne godt holde en tale.
But ten minutes, that is too little. He could well have held a talk.
101 Sige nogle guddommelige ord. 00:15:13:01 00:15:15:21
Said some divine words.
102 Sige et eller andet, 00:15:15:24 00:15:20:13
som der står i en bog.
Say something or other from some book.
103 Efter Lidvins udsagn så 00:15:20:16 00:15:25:19
siger han så mange kloge ting og det synes jeg godt han kunne gjort litt mer ut av.
According to Lidvin, he says so many wise things, and I think he could have done something about that.
104 I Indien er der meget få, 00:15:25:22 00:15:30:14
der tør rejse kritik af Sai Baba.
In India there are very few who dare to criticise Sai Baba.
105 En af årsagerne er guruens politiske 00:15:30:17 00:15:36:17
indflydelse, som rækker helt til tops i det politiske system,
One reason for this is the guru’s political influence, which goes right to the top of the political system.
106 Både den nuværende og forhenværende 00:15:36:20 00:15:42:04
premierminister er flittige gæster i Babas ashram.
Both the present and previous Prime Ministers are frequent guests at Sai Baba’s ashram.
107 En af de få indere, der offentligt 00:15:42:07 00:15:47:08
står frem med kritikk, er denne mand.
One of the few Indians who speaks out critically in public is this man
108 Han er forfatter og formand for en 00:15:47:11 00:15:53:16
bevægelse af kritikere mod Sai Baba.
He is an author and the chairman for a movement of critics of Sai Baba.
SANAL EDAMARUKU, Generalsekretaer i Indias Rasjonalisters Forbund
SANAL EDAMARUKU, General secretary in India’s Rationalist Association
SB is a charlatan, a cheat, a scoundrel, praying on the gullibility of the common man. And he is an exploiter class one. From the prime ministers to the presidents to chief justices in our supreme court we have a lot of devotees of SB and his influence is very powerful.
109 Indflydelsen gælder også medierne. 00:16:13:07 00:16:16:17
He also has influence over the media.
110 Optagelsen her blev klippet 00:16:16:20 00:16:22:16
ud af et statsligt tv-program fordi den skapte tvil om miraklene.
Clips were removed from a State TV programme because it caused doubts about the miracles.
111 Man ser hvordan Sai Baba få den kæde i hånded - 00:16:22:19 00:16:25:07
One sees Sai Baba get the chain in his hand
112 - som han bagefter lader som om, 00:16:25:10 00:16:29:23
han materialiserer.
Which he subsequently pretends to materialise.
113 DR Documentaer har ladet en tryllekunstner 00:16:31:11 00:16:36:18
gennemgå en række optagelser.
DR Documentaries has gone through some footage with a conjurer.
114 For en profesjonell er det tydeligt, 00:16:36:21 00:16:41:15
at Sai Baba udfører tryllenumre, ikke mirakler.
To a professional it is obvious that Sai Baba uses sleight of hand, not miracles.
(NILS KRØJGAARD, tryllekunstner)
115 Vi ser here Sai Baba komme hen til en af 00:16:41:18 00:16:48:14
sine medhjælpere og modtage gaven som han skal overrekke.
(NILS KRØJGAARD, conjurer)
Here we see Sai Baba come over to one of his assistants and receive the gift he will hand over.
116 Han prøver at finde kæden 00:16:48:17 00:16:52:13
med venstre hånd, skjult av høyre hånd.
He tries to find the chain, hidden by his right hand,with his left hand.
117 Så får han fat i den, 00:16:52:16 00:16:57:01
dropper den over i højre hånd -
As soon as he gets hold of it – he drops it across to the right hand.
118 - og materialiserer kæden. 00:16:57:04 00:17:00:21
and materialises the chain.
119 Et andet af Sai Babas mirakler er, 00:17:03:14 00:17:08:18
når han frembringer hellig aske.
Another of Sai Baba’s miracles is when he materialises holy ash.
120 Læg mærke til Goldie Hawn 00:17:08:21 00:17:12:22
i baggrunden.
Note Goldie Hawn in the background.
121 (NILS K.) Her foran mig 00:17:18:20 00:17:21:21
har jeg en bunke aske.
(NILS K.) Here before me I have a heap of ash.
122 Asken er et flygtigt, 00:17:21:24 00:17:25:13
luftigt materiale. {{TRANSLATOR’S NOTE – ’FLYKTIG’ means ’volatile’
and is not correct to describe ash. Has this been mistranslated from English already? Instead, I use ’fluffy’, which describes some sorts of Baba’s ash much better}}
The ash is fluffy, insubstantial material.
123 Hvis man komprimerer asken, 00:17:25:16 00:17:29:21
så kan man få slike tabletter.
If you compress the ash, then you can make such tablets.
124 En slik tablet kan man faktisk gemme 00:17:29:24 00:17:33:22
i hånden og bevæge hånden -
Such a tablet can be hidden in the hand and one can move the hand
125 - uden at man taber tabletten. 00:17:34:00 00:17:37:14
- without losing the tablet.
126 Her ser man askepillen 00:17:43:05 00:17:47:17
mellem fingrene.
You see the pill of ash between the fingers.
127 Her knuses den. 00:17:53:12 00:17:56:14
Here it is crushed.
128 Sai Baba gemmer askepillerne 00:18:05:11 00:18:10:17
i sin knyttede venstre hånd.
Sai Baba hides the ash pills in his closed left hand.
129 Her tager han en pille 00:18:10:20 00:18:15:09
over i sin højre hånd.
He takes a pill over to his right hand.
130 Ifølge tryllekunstneren 00:18:29:11 00:18:34:09
gentager det samme sig her, kamufluert av et lommetørkle.
According to the conjurer, the same occurs here, camouflaged by a hankerchief.
131 Tilbederne opdager 00:18:35:16 00:18:40:02
tilsyneladende ingenting.
((NILS K.)) The followers apparently discover nothing.
132 De er fuldstændigt mentalt 00:18:40:05 00:18:46:08
afvæbnede. De lgger ikke merke til at han tar now.
They are totally mentally vulnerable. They don’t notice that he is taking anything.
133 Det eneste, de koncentrerer sig om, 00:18:46:11 00:18:52:17
det er at få et glimt af Sai Baba, av deres Gud.
All they concentrate on is getting a glimpse of Sai Baba, their God.
134 Som tryllekunstner arbejder man 00:18:52:20 00:18:58:10
med at aflede tilskuernes, publikums opmærksomheden.
As a conjurer, one works to distract the watchers’, the public’s attention.
135 Det har Sai Baba slet ikke brug for. 00:18:58:13 00:19:01:17
Sai Baba does not need that at all.
136 Den danske gruppe er på udflugt. 00:19:12:16 00:19:15:24
The Danish group are on an excursion.
137 Næste morgen skal de se mirakler. Gruppen har fått vite at Sai 00:19:54:06 00:20:01:17
Baba sover aldrig og er aldrig syg.
They shall see miracles tomorrow morning. The group has been told that Sai Baba never sleeps and is never ill.
((LIDVIN)) ”For Baba, når han går i sand og grus, i regn f. Eks. Så er hans føtter aldri skitne. Aldri. Dere ser aldri en videofilm hvor han går i regnet, hvor føttene er skitne. ”
((LIDVIN)) When Baba walks in sand or gravel, in the rain for example, his feet are never dirtied. Never. You never see a videofilm where he is walking in the rain and his feet are dirty.”
”Her har vi et avtrykk av Babas føtter, og det kommer det amrit på.”
”We have here an impression of Baba’s feet, and amrit is seeping from them.”
138 Amrit er gudernes nektar. Deltagerne 00:20:22:00 00:20:28:18
får at vide, at det er et mirakel og at amriten kan helbrede.
Amrit is the nectar of the gods. Participants are told that this is a
Miracle and that the amrit can heal.
((LIDVIN)) ”Når dere skriver et brev til Baba, skal dere alltid undertegne ‘Always at your lotus feet’.”
((LIDVIN)) ”When you write a letter to Baba, you should always end it with
‘Always at your lotus feet’.”
139 Lotusfødderne 00:20:45:04 00:20:48:21
står ved Tyvens Tempel.
The lotus feet are at the Thief’s Temple.
140 Det ble kaldt Tyvens Tempel, 00:20:51:00 00:20:55:03
fordi det ble opført af denne mand -
It was called the thief’s temple, because it was constructed by this man
141 - der var tyv, 00:20:55:06 00:21:00:03
indtil han traf Sai Baba, som bad ham oppføre et tempel.
- who was a thief, until he met Sai Baba, who asked him to build a temple.
142 De f[r vite at billedet her av Sai Baba hver dag ved et mirakel dækkes af hellig aske. 00:21:02:09 00:21:07:07
They are told that this picture of Sai Baba gets miraculously covered in holy ash every day.
143 og at asken drysser af, når man lovsynger Baba, som et tegn på hans guddommelig naervaer. 00:21:07:10 00:21:13:15
and that the ash falls down when one sings praise to Baba, as a sign of his divine presence .
144 Rejsedeltagerne får bagefter 00:21:58:17 00:22:05:01
uddelt asken til at tage med hjem.
The travel party later receive ash to take home.
145 Tempelindehaveren tager noen amuletter 00:22:07:13 00:22:15:07
og lægger dem i tilhængernes håndflader. Igjen er visst den såkalte amrit.
The temple owner takes some amulets and puts them on the follower’s
palms. What remains is the so-called amrit.
146 Nogle av tilhengerne er overbeviste om (147) at amritten på mirakuløst og uforklarlig vis bliver ved med at flyde fra Sai Babas amuletter. 00:22:25:23 00:22:31:23
Some of the followers are convinced that the amrit continues to flow from Sai Baba’s amuletter by some miraculous and inexplicable means.
148 Ligesom asken får rejsedeltagerne 00:22:35:24 00:22:40:24
den flydende amrit med seg hjem i medbrakte flasker.
As with the ash, the travel party are able to take liquid amrit home in bottles they brought along.
149 De får at vide, 00:22:41:02 00:22:46:01
at den kan helbrede sygdomme.
They are told that it can heal illnesses.
((LIDVIN)) ”Han har fjernet den. Han har fjernet amuletten, men den fortsetter å komme.”
((LIDVIN)) ”He has removed it. He has removed the amulet, but it keeps coming.”
150 Du ved ikke, hvor det kommer fra? 00:22:52:23 00:22:56:22
You do not know from where it comes?
((LIDVIN)) ”Kommer det fra din egen hånd, så? Jeg spør ikke.”
((LIDVIN)) ”Is it coming from your own hand, then? I don’t ask.”
((G.M.)) 151 Jeg fik lagt den der amulet i min hånd. 00:23:00:10 00:23:06:04
Så begyndte det plutselig at flyde honning ut av den-
I had that amulet there put in my hand. Then nectar suddenly began to flow out of it -
152 - som om det kom direkte 00:23:06:07 00:23:09:17
fra den amulet.
- as if it came directly from the amulet.
153 Jeg ved ikke, hvordan det sker. 00:23:11:15 00:23:17:18
Det virker bare som helt underligt. Alltså en merkelig fornemmelse av hvordan det bare kan skje.
I don’t know how it happens. It just seems completely strange. A peculiar sense that it simply happens.
154 Det er noget, som vi 00:23:17:21 00:23:22:00
absolut ikke forstår noget af.
It’s something that simply cannot be understood at all
155 Så det er noget af et mirakel. 00:23:22:03 00:23:25:18
So it is something of a miracle.
((NILS. K))
156 Jeg har også fremstillet min egen amrit, 00:23:25:21 00:23:32:12
liksom jeg også har lavet nogle små amuletter.
I have also manufactured my own amrit and likewise have also made some small amulets.
157 De er lavet af en ske. 00:23:32:15 00:23:36:16
Den er oval og har en svag krumning.
They are made from a spoon. It is oval and has a slight concavity.
158 Det vil si at amritten kan ligge inde i krumningen here. 00:23:36:19 00:23:39:22
That is to say, the amrit can collect in the concavity here.
159 Vi skal nu se tyven igen, hvor han 00:23:40:00 00:23:45:19
giver amuletterne til tilbederne.
We shall observe once more how he gives the amulets to the followers.
160 Han bruger en ske, 00:23:45:22 00:23:50:17
som han dypper ned i en spand fyllt med sukkervand som vi ser her.
He uses a spoon, which he dips in a jar full of sugar water as we see here.
161 Alle, der har prøvd å smøre 00:23:50:20 00:23:54:07
sirup på en pandekage, ved -
Everyone who has tried to put sirup on a pancake knows -
162 - hvor lang tid det kan tage 00:23:54:10 00:23:59:07
for sirup om at dryppe fra skeen.
- how long it takes for the sirup to run from the spoon.
163 Det kan blive hængende der i forholdsvis lang tid. 00:23:59:10 00:24:02:10
It can keep on sticking there for a relatively long time.
164 Vi prøver at putte den 00:24:02:13 00:24:06:05
ned i skålen med amrit.
We put it down into the saucer with amrit.
165 Jeg placerer nu amuletten. Den har vi her. 00:24:06:08 00:24:10:00
Now I put the amulet in place. Here it is.
166 Og se, når hånded er flad, 00:24:10:03 00:24:15:05
så sker der ingenting.
And see, when the hand is level, then nothing happens.
167 Men så snart man begynner å krumme hånden, 00:24:15:08 00:24:22:21
så begynder amritten at løbe, like så langsomt fra hånden.
But as soon as one begins to slope the hand, the amrit begins to run, as slowly as this from the hand.
168 Det er forbløffende, 00:24:22:24 00:24:27:06
hvor lang tid amritten kan bli med ved å løbe.
It is remarkable for how long the amrit continues to run.
169 Fordi reisedeltagerne fik at vide, 00:24:28:21 00:24:33:11
at både amritten og asken har helbredende virkning,
Because the travel group were told that both the amrit and the ash have healing properties,
170 Vi fik begge dele analyseret. 00:24:33:14 00:24:37:22
We had both things analysed.
171 Amritten bestod af vand og sukker. 00:24:38:00 00:24:43:09
Asken var mest kalk.
The amrit consisted in water and sugar. The ash was mostly chalk.
((ERIK DAHM, Labatoriesjef))
172 Vi ved ikke helt præcist, 00:24:43:12 00:24:46:13
om det er aske. Det er mulig det er aske.
((ERIK DAHM, Head of the laboratory))
We do not know with complete certainty whether it is ash. I could be ash.
173 Men det her pulver har vi undersøgt 00:24:46:16 00:24:52:07
for indhold af mineraler.
We have investigated the powder for mineral content.
174 Den indeholder en række mineraler, 00:24:52:10 00:24:56:16
men primært kalsium, alminnelig kalk.
It contains a number, primarily calcium, ordinary chalk.
175 Bortset fra det så har ikke våre undersøkelser kunnet 00:24:56:19 00:25:01:24
vise nogle ekstraordinære ting som er spesielt helbredende.
Apart from that, our investigations have been unable to show any extraordinary thing that has special healing properties.
176 Sai Baba laver mange forskjellige mirakler. 00:25:07:02 00:25:10:15
Sai Baba does many different miracles.
177 Eksempelvis låner han ofte 00:25:10:18 00:25:15:00
en sølvring fra en discipel.
For example, he often borrows a silver ring from a disciple.
178 Han tager sølvringen og gnider så stille og rolig på den. 00:25:15:03 00:25:21:07
og pludselig forvandler den seg til en guldring.
He takes the silver ring and quietly and gently rubs it, and suddenly it is transformed into a gold ring.
179 Det kan naturligvis ikke lade sig 00:25:21:10 00:25:27:16
gøre uden bøde å ha en guldring og en sølvring. Det skal vi nå se.
This can obviously not be done without both a silver ring and a gold ring. We shall now see this.
180 Vi ser her, at Sai Baba låner 00:25:29:09 00:25:35:03
en sølvring af en af sine disciple.
Here we see Sai Baba borrow a silver ring from one of his disciples.
181 For at være sikker på, at alle som er tilstede i rommet her kan se, at det er en sølvring - 00:25:35:06 00:25:40:00
So that all who are present in the room here can be sure it is a silver ring -
182 - for at gøre miraklet så sterkt som overhodet mulig - 00:25:40:03 00:25:42:22
- to make the miracle as great as humanly possible -
183 - så viser Sai Baba nu 00:25:43:00 00:25:48:01
sølvringen til sine disciple som sitter foran for virkelig å se.
Baba now shows the silver ring to his disciples sitting in front of him, so as really to see -
184 at ringen er af sølv. 00:25:48:04 00:25:51:15
that the ring is made of silver.
185 Om et kort øjeblik da skal vi vise at Sai Baba 00:25:51:18 00:25:57:08
trylle ringen om til en guldring.
In a moment we shows Sai Baba conjuring the ring into a gold one.
186 Læg mærke til, at hans højre 00:25:57:11 00:26:02:08
hånd om et kort øjeblik er knyttet kraftig.
Note that, for a brief moment, his right hand is tightly closed.
187 Man kan tydelig se han skjuler en ring i sin højre hånd. 00:26:02:11 00:26:08:11
One can clearly see that he is hiding a ring in his right hand.
188 Han skal lige kysses en sidste gang. 00:26:08:14 00:26:14:05
Så får han ringen.
He is just going to be kissed a last time. ((TRANSLATOR - This is a comment on a lady who kisses SB’s hand)) Then he gets the ring..................
189 Der har vi hånden. Som er kraftig knyttet. Og så får han ringen. Den får han her. . 00:26:14:08 00:26:18:17
There is the hand which is tightly closed. And then he gets the ring. He gets it here.
190 Læg så mærke til, at der kommer 00:26:18:20 00:26:23:18
sølvringen ned bag hynden i stolen.
Note too that the silver ring comes down behind the cushion in the chair.
191 Han puster på ringen, 00:26:23:21 00:26:28:24
og den bliver lavet om til guld.
He blows on the ring and it turns into gold.
192 Som man kan se, folk tror, at det er et mirakel. 00:26:29:02 00:26:31:16
As one can see, people believe that it is a miracle.
193 Men det er simpelt trylleri. 00:26:31:19 00:26:35:18
Ikke nok med, at han fumler, ja men så
But it is simple conjuring. Not only that, but he fumbles and so
194 har han også materialisert eller fremtryllet en guldring, som slet ikke passer. 00:26:35:21 00:26:42:19
has materialised or conjured forth a gold ring that doesn’t fit at all.
((LIDVIN)) ”Det stod også i avisene her hjemme. Alle så det. Og her er alltså bildet av det. Det er Baba i skyene
((LIDVIN)) ”It was also in the papers here at home. Everyone saw it. And here is the picture of it. That is Baba in the clouds.”
195 Billedet betragtes av tilhengerne som bevis på at SB.............flyene. 00:26:56:08 00:27:03:20
Hvad siger to fotografer?
The picture is regarded by followers as proof that Sai Baba ........(etc??)
What do two photographers say?
((HEINE PEDERSEN fotograf))
196 Som dokument er det her intet værd. 00:27:03:23 00:27:08:22
((HEINE PEDERSEN photographer))
None of this has any value as documentation.
197 Det er et uskarpt billede af en mand. 00:27:09:00 00:27:12:11
It is an unclear picture of a man.
((HENRIK SAXGREN fotograf))
198 Fotografi... Man digter selv ((visse uforståelige kommentarer!)) sine historier ind i fotografiet. 00:27:12:14 00:27:18:24
((HENRIK SAXGREN Photographer)) Photography... everyone constructs each their own story from the photograph.
199 Det er litt svært at se, 00:27:19:02 00:27:23:10
hvordan det er frembragt.
It is a bit hard to see how it is produced.
200 Men jeg ser det som om det er to muligheder. Enten er billederne taget oven i hinanden - 00:27:23:13 00:27:28:14
but I see that there are two possibilities. The pictures are either superimposed on one another -
201 - et billede af en mand 00:27:28:17 00:27:32:22
og et billede af nogle skyer - som vi allesammen har prøvet,
- one picture of a man and one picture of some clouds – as we have all tried out,
202 - eller også er det ... og det er høyst sannsynlig 00:27:33:00 00:27:37:23
frembragt i en computer, hvor man...
or else they are produced in a computer, where one... and it is highly likely that...
203 Det kan man gøre med enhver 00:27:38:01 00:27:42:11
hjemmecomputer meget let.
This can be done very easily in any home computer.
204 ... lægger billeder sammen. 00:27:42:14 00:27:45:15
... put the pictures together.
205 Men der findes langt alvorligere 00:28:09:06 00:28:15:24
anklager mot Sai Baba om seksuelt misbrug.
But there are much more serious allegations of sexual molestation against Sai Baba.
206 Guruen er kendt for at daglig udvælge disciple, som tages til de såkalte interviews. 00:28:16:02 00:28:21:13
The guru is known for daily selecting disciples to take to a so-called interview.
207 Intervjuene foregår i enrum med Sai Baba - 00:28:21:16 00:28:24:08
The interviews take place alone in a room with Sai Baba -
208 - og opfattes som noget 00:28:24:11 00:28:30:02
af det højeste, man kan opnå.
- and are regarded as something of the highest one can achieve.
209 Anklagerne siger, at Sai Baba under disse intervjuene her misbruger sine dissipler seksuelt. 00:28:30:05 00:28:35:00
The accusers say that Sai Baba has molested his disciples sexually during these interviews.
210 Det drejer sig om unge mænd og drenge, heriblant mindreårige. 00:28:35:03 00:28:39:18
It involves young men and boys, including minors.
211 Sai Baba og hans organisation har hittil afvist alle anklagene. 00:28:39:21 00:28:43:24
Sai Baba and his organisation have so far rejected all the allegations.
212 De betegner påstandene som en ond kampagne baseret på annenhånds rygter. 00:28:44:02 00:28:49:06
They characterize the allegations as an evil campaign based on second-hand rumours.
213 DR har talt med en rekke tidligere discipler, som har været udsat for misbruget. 00:28:49:09 00:28:55:07
DR has spoken to a number of ex-disciples who have been molested.
(”SAM”) One time he had his robe almost completely off and he tried to have anal sex with me, because he came from behind me and started climbing up on top of me, you know, and being that I’m so much taller than him, in order to keep prevent it from happening, I just stood straight up and didn’t allow him to do anything, you know, and I kind of kept pushing him away and keep him there until ??... I know, I want to talk to you, I want to be with you and I love you. He said, ”You don’t love me? You don’t love me? And I would say, ”No, I love you, but I just don’t want to have sexual relations with you.”
214 Drengen og hans familie blev 00:29:32:00 00:29:36:07
overøst med smykker og ure.
The boy and his family were smothered in jewels and watches.
215 Familien har ønsket at være anonym, 00:29:36:10 00:29:41:05
fordi de frygter reaktionen fra Sai Baba’s tilhengere.
The family wishes to remain anonymous because they fear reprisals from Sai Baba followers.
216 De bor i dag i Midtvesten. Faren var en av lederne i den amerikanske Sai Baba-bevægelsen - 00:29:41:08 00:29:46:21
Today they live in the US Midwest. The father was one of the leaders in the American Sai movement -
217 - men brød med organisationen, da han opdagede misbruget. Det er første gang de forteller sin historie på TV 00:29:46:24 00:29:53:22
But he broke with the organisation when he discovered the molesting. This is the first time they give their accounts on TV.
(”SAM”s father) We were shocked when we heard it and the both of us just embraced our son at that time and we said, ”That’s it. It’s over. It’s finished.” And the thing that was most impactful there, was that when we said to him, ”Why didn’t you tell us?”, and he said, ”The greatest fear that I had was that my family would choose SB and I would lose my family.” And that he had lived with that fear. And he said, ”and that I would be responsible for possibly bringing down an organisation as big as this.”
(”SAM”) The first time I had a personal experience with SB was when I was 16 years old. I went to India alone with some friends in a USA group. I think I was the only person in that group that he gave a personal interview to. I went in there, and he motioned for me to lower my pants. And I did. I was very nervous at the time, yeah. And he waved his hand and turned it over and showed me some oil. And he started to rub it on my testicles and started kissing me. And as he was kissing me, he started kissing me deeply, you know. And I started tensing up and, you know, not understanding what was happening. But it seemed to me as if SB was trying to make my penis erect. He had told me not to tell anybody about what he had done, that people wouldn’t understand it.
218 Misbruget fortsatte gennem flere år. 00:31:46:24 oo:31:49:21
The molesting went on for several years.
(”SAM”) The second time that I went to see SB was in 1997. I went with my whole family and a group of people. I believe we had about 10 people in our group. I don’t remember exactly what happened that first day, but I know that there was physical contact in the personal interview room. I ended up getting about 20 to 21 personal interviews within a month and a half. Then he at one time gave me a watch and I wore it for about a week. And after about the first week of wearing it, the gold started to fade off of the inside and around the sides and I felt it to be kind of strange, because I felt it was like a token of love or a spiritual gift or some sort of a … something special, and it was just already … it was really cheap, I could tell. The second hand was sometimes moving in different directions, and the gold left and so I asked him in an interview, you know, why it was changing colours and he almost got upset with me for asking a question like that, you know. And he told me then, “I’m going to give you a solid gold watch.” And so he made another watch for me. It was solid gold. At the time it looked very gold on the front and the back. And about a week later it was all faded off. It didn’t work very well for very long. But every time we would go back into the personal room, his wants got to be very intimate. And he was constantly having me remove my penis and he would hold it, sometimes put it in his mouth and look at me, and then ask me to do the same thing or push my head down and lift his robe up. And I was gagging and almost about to vomit. And, you know, that was probably the most mentally break down type of thing I’ve ever done in my life, because if I didn’t feel like at that time, like my life or my family’s happiness or … was depending on it, I wouldn’t have done it. But my mentality at that time … I felt like it was a life or almost death situation. You know, this was God in human form, but that was my mental program – this is God in human form. How could I deny him what he was trying to make me do? There must be some deeper reason or deeper meaning that what I see.”
219 Sai Baba truede med, at guttens familien ikke ville få flere interviews - 00:34:33:13 00:34:37:18
Sai Baba threatened the boy by saying that his family would not get any more interviews -
220 - hvis han røbede noget 00:34:37:21 00:34:41:10
for sine forældre.
If he mentioned anything to his parents.
(”SAM”) But there were several occasions that really made it snap in my mind that it was no longer even possibly a spritual experience. I was constantly feeling the pressures of the thousands and thousands of people outside the room that all wanted to be in the position that I was in, and who every day almost treated me with anger or resent, you know, because I got so much attention from SB. My feeling, however, was, if you guys only knew what was actually going on back there, you wouldn’t even want to be in my shoes, because it’s not very fun.
221 Familien er langt fra den eneste som kan berette om sex-misbruk. 00:35:20:12 00:35:24:04
This family was far from being the only one who can tell of sexual abuse.
222 Politiet både i USA, Tyskland 00:35:24:07 00:35:29:04
og Frankrig har fået anmeldelser fra tidligere disipler.
The police in USA, Germany and France have received formal charges from ex-disciples.
223 Tyve anmeldelser blev indgivet til myndighederne. 00:35:29:07 00:35:33:12
Twenty reports were deposited with the authorities.
224 Domstolen i Indien har ennå ikke afgjort, hvordan de vil behandle anmeldelsene. 00:35:33:15 00:35:38:04
The court in India has still not decided how it will deal with the formal charges.
225 En af anmelderne bor i Boston. Hans 00:35:38:07 00:35:45:06
mor er glødende tilhænger af Baba, og gjennom seks år var han det også.
One of the accusers lives in Boston. His mother is a fervant follower of
Baba, and he was too for six years.
(JED GEYERHAHN) In 1989 when I was 15 years old I went to India for three weeks. And on that trip I had four interviews. And in the third interview he actually asked me to untie my pants. And he forcibly pulled my pants down and with his bare hand grabbed my groin and rubbed some oil on the side of my scrotum. And I went again on the following year, and on that trip when I was 16 years old, SB called me again for a private interview. At that point I was even actually more uncomfortable because it seemed like this had already taken place, there is no reason why it needed to take place again. But he asked me to take my pants down. I did and he went on and produced an oily substance and rubbed it on the side of my scrotum.
226 Ifølge Jed Geyerhahn 00:36:34:10 00:36:38:15 var han langt fra den eneste.
According to Jed Geyerhahn, he is far form the only one.
(JED G) I have talked with students at SB’s school and that have had sexual relationships with SB. And it’s really common knowledge that several students stay with SB all night on an ongoing basis. And of course nobody talks about what takes place with these students with SB, but from the students I’ve talked to (it’s) clear that there are sexual relationships taking place. And in fact one student I talked to directly was a person that was staying with SB. And from the conversation it was clear that it was very difficult for him to come forward with this information, because he’d be rejected by his family and by his culture and and by his people, unlike American students who have the support of their culture and society and family. They come forward and talk about the fact that they have been mistreated by SB.
(”SAM”) What really helped me was when I had some conversations with some other people who had had similar experienes. Because I felt, that if they had had experiences as intense, or close to as intense as mine, I could talk to them about it more openly than I could talk to with my dad. So we had talked about it, and all the people that I had talked about it were equally confused about it as I was. However, also equally brainwashed and allowing it to continue to take place. So I would say that finally I decided that I was not going to put myself into that position again, because life without SB was going to be a better life.”
(se ovenstående fra Jed of Alaya i en kort video klipp)
227 Da sønnen endelig fortalte, 00:38:26:03 00:38:29:06
hvad der foregik -
When his son at last told him what was going on -
228 - afbrød faren al kontakt med 00:38:29:09 00:38:34:18
Sai Baba og stoppede som leder i den amerikanske del av bevegelsen.
- the father broke all connection with Sai Baba and resigned as leader of a part of the movement in America.
(”SAM’S” FATHER) I could see the manipulation that had been done. The threats, the pressure, the intense responsibility to bring this boy along, to keep him around for seven years as Baba’s plaything.
229 Faren fortalte at han klagede til 00:38:53:16 00:38:58:13
organisationens øverste leder i USA.
The father told that he complained to the highest leader in the organisation in the USA.
(”SAM’S” FATHER) We told him every single detail. And honestly, I would say that he was genuinely shaken. He made comments like, ”Faith has to be restored. Words will not be enough. I hate to think that 25 years of my life had been for nothing, had been a waste. We MUST talk to Baba about this.” And he asked us, ”Please, please, do not tell anyone about this until we’ve had a chance to talk to Baba.” He said, ”I will go, I will be there for birthday.” He was called in and he specifically adressed the situation with our family. Baba was very clear exactly which family it was. He said, ”Baba, I need to talk to you about inappropriate action that this family says you’ve had with their son.” Baba’s response was: ”Swami is pure.” The next day Baba gave his big birthday discourse, and in that discourse he praised this individual, that man who is the head of the organisation, more than he had ever praised anyone else before, saying what an incredible devotee he was, and all that he had done. And a friend of mine who had videotaped it and had it, was approached afterwards by this man. He said, ”Oh, did you get that on tape?” He said, ”It was the peak of my life.” So when he returned and he called, he said, ”I’ve done what I said I would do. I’ve kept my word. I spoke to Baba. Baba’s response is: ’Swami is pure,’ and he said that you would return.” And he said, ”My heart and my mind are on Swami. You have to do whatever you have to do.” And I just ... I felt that he just couldn’t face it.
230 Conny Larsson var gjennom 21 år en tro discipel af Sai Baba. 00:41:03:04 00:41:06:24
Conny Larsson was a faithful disciple of Sai Baba for 21 years.
231 I Sverige har Conny Larsson i mange år drevet et hjem for misbrugere. 00:41:07:02 00:41:10:13
For many years, Conny Larsson has run a home for drug users in Sweden.
232 Og flere ganger tog han patienter med til Indien for at skulle bli helbredet av Sai Baba. 00:41:10:16 00:41:15:13
And he took patients along with him to India many times so that they might be cured by Sai Baba.
233 For tiden arbejder Conny Larsson i det sydlige Polen med at undervise personalet innenfor sosialforsogen og fengselsvesenet.00:41:15:16 00:41:22:12
At present, Conny Larsson works in southern Poland teaching personell within the social care sectore and in prisons.
234 Før var han en af de to øverste chefer for den svenske Sai Baba-organisation. 00:41:22:15 00:41:29:17
Previously, he was one of the two top leaders of the Swedish Sai Baba
Organisation.
(CONNY LARSSON)
”Der var så her. Når jeg var 4 år gammel frem til jeg var åtte, så ble jeg utnyttet av en pedofil, min pappas beste venn og sjef. Og han voldtok meg hver fredag kveld, når lønningene hadde kommet.
It was like this. From when I was four years old until I was eight, I was misused by a pedophile, my dad`s best friend and boss. And he raped me every Friday evening, when the pay came.
Og de skulle drikke alkohol, og pappa hadde sovnet. Da voldtok han meg oralt inne på toalettet hos oss. Og siden da jeg kom til Sai Baba som jeg trodde var Gud og min redning, så ble jeg invitert inn i det indre intervjurommet.
And they’d have drinks and when my dad dropped off, he violated me orally in our toilet. And after that I came to Sai Baba, who I believed to be my God and my saviour, and then I was invited in to the inner interview room.
Og det var der han liksom dro ned buksene på meg og tok fram min penis og begynnte å smøre den inn med olje, og så begynnte å runke meg, onanere - og etter at han hadde gjort det så ville han naturligvis suge meg også. Og jeg sto der helt plakat, og forstod likesom ikke riktig hva som skjedde da.
And that was whe he pulled my pants down and took out my penis and began to rub it in with oil then began to ’wank’ me, onani - that is. And after that he would of course want to suck me too. And I stood there quite speechless, and couldn’t quite figure out what was really happening then.
Og hva han så gjorde, var jo at han ville at jeg skulle suge ham, så da dro han opp sin drakt slik, og da sto han der med sin lille penis som var omtrent så stor da, og trodde at jeg skulle suge ham, men det kunne ikke jeg, for jeg kom jo til å tenke på denne historien om voldtekten med barn, så det gikk ikke. Jeg fikk oppkasfornemmelser. Og på den måten fikk jeg også Sai Baba til å forstå at jeg ikke kunne det. Og da lot han meg være. Men onanere meg, det ville han jo gjerne.
What he wanted then was that I should suck him, so he pulled up his smock like this and then he pulled out his small penis – about so large – and thought that I would suck him, but I couldn’t, because I came to think of the violation episode when I was a child, so it was not on. I had a nauseous feeling and, in that way, got Sai Baba to realise that I just couldn’t. And then he dropped it. But he still really wanted to wank me.
235 Conny Larsson trodde på Sai Baba som en 00:42:49:04 00:42:56:16
gud og fandt sig i de seksuelle tilnærmelserne.
Conny Larsson believed in Sai Baba as a god and accepted his sexual approaches.
236 Han brød først – han var en voksen man på det tidspunktet - da han flere år etterpå oplevede hvordan SB behandlet en svensk familie. 00:42:56:19 00:43:02:19
He broke away – he was a mature adult at the time - only when he experienced the treatment given by Sai Baba to a Swedish family.
(CONNY LARSSON) ”Det var da vi i juni, den 6 juni, 1999, så dro vi – en gruppe fra Gøteborg - ned til Sai Baba, og da var det en gut som står på passajerlisten her. Han og hans mamma og hans bror og vi andre dro ned, og vi ble invitert til intervjurommet.
It was when we went in June - June, 16 1999 – a group from Gothenburg went down to Sai Baba, and then there was a boy who is listed on this passenger list.
Og i det indre intervjurommet, så ble denne gutten lokket inn, mens hans mamma satt utenfor. Og da hørte jeg jo hva som skjedde der inne av seksuell karakter, for jeg har selv vært med på det bak skammens forheng, som jeg kaller det i dag. Og da ble det så hørbart at jeg ble flau, det var for mye.
And so this boy was lured into the inner interview room while his mother sat outside. And then I heard what occurred, of a sexual nature, in there, because I have myself been behind this æcurtain of shameæ as I call it today. And it was so audible that I got embarrassed.
Og da Baba hadde gått og puten som han har som støtte i ryggen, hadde falt fremover, og da passet jeg på å ta den puten, for jeg satt rett ved siden av den, slik. Og da tok jeg puten og dunket litt i den for å lage litt lyd, for det ble jo pinlig.
And when Baba had gone and the cushion he has a a back support had fallen forward, I took care to replace that cushion - for I was sitting just beside it - like this.
Og da når jeg skal sette puten tilbake, så får jeg til min stor forbauselse se at i stolens ryggende, lengst innerst i setet, så ligger det gullur, gullhalsbånd, og gullring og annet krimskrams, som han siden, når gutten har gått ut derfra - så kommer han ut fornøyd og glad og smatter slik, og så setter han seg og har frekkheten og går på moren direkte, som titter på gutten sin og lurer på hva som har hendt ham, og spør mammaen ”Hva vil du ha?”
And when I was about to put the cushion back, to my great surprise I saw that, in the rear end of the chair and furthest within the seat. Lies gold watches, gold necklaces, gold rings, and other bits and pieces, which he later - when the boy had come out – he comes out satisfied and happy, and smacks his lips. And then he sits down and has the affrontery directly to confront the mother, who is looking at her boy and wondering what has happened to him, and asks her ”What do you want?”
Og så har han frekkheten å fuske og gjør en falsk materialisering som jeg med egne øyner så når han tok med hånden bak ryggen. Og ikke bare voldta gutten eller forføre gutten der inne, men å lure moren og alle oss der ute at han kunne manifestere, når alt hadde ligget bak puten. Og da liksom, da gikk proppen i hodet mitt. Tenk, sa det bare, og da forstod jeg er jeg er lurt åndelig og fysisk, hele verden er lurt både åndelig og fysisk.”
Then he has the nerve to cheat and do a sleight-of-and materialisation,which I see with my own eyes when he took it with his hand behind his back. And not only rape or seduce the boy in there, but fool the mother and all of us outside thet he could manifest things, when everything is lying behind his cushion. And the, so to speak, then the penny really dropped for me. Just think, my mind said, and then I understood that I have been deceived spiritually and physically, the whole world is fooled spiritually and physically.”
237 Hvad er hændt dig, efter 00:45:08:06 00:45:12:19
du er stået frem som modstander av Sai Baba?
What happened to you after you stood forth in opposition to Sai Baba?
238 Da saken kom frem forlot mange svenske tilhængere bevægelsen. 00:45:47:16 00:45:52:02
When the matter came out, many Swedish followers left the movement.
[CONNY LARSSON - speaking about T. Meyer]
Han er den sterkest og mektigste personen i hele Europa, så som varande Europa-ledara. Og han er også den person som vet om allting.
He is the strongest, most powerful person in the whole of Europe, the permanent leader in Europe.
239 De danske ledere, derimot, afviser alle anklager. 00:45:52:05 00:45:55:19
The Danish leaders, however, reject all accusations.
240 Lederen af Sai Baba-organisationen 00:45:55:22 00:46:01:11
i Danmark er Thorbjørn Meyer, som er en lektor i etikk ved K`havns Handelshøyskol.
The leader of the Sai Baba organisation in Denmark is Thorbjorn Meyer, who is a lecturer in ethics at the Business School Copenhagen. .
241 Han er desuden chef 00:46:01:14 00:46:04:23
for Sai Baba i Europa.
He is also the boss for Sai Baba in Europe. (CONNY LARSSON) Jeg er blitt truet med at når jeg drar til Polen, så skal jeg bli skutt. Og man har forsøkt en ny taktikk nå, fra Sai-bevegelsen, og det er å sende ut meldinger om meg, at jeg skulle være en dømt pedofil. Man har liksom vendt på hele problematikken, og sagt at det som Sai Baba har gjort seg skyldig i, pedofili, at det er jeg som har gjort meg skyldig i - jeg og de andre guttene som har våget å stå frem - det er vi som er pedofile. Og det har man sendt up melding om over hele verden. Og det tror Sai-tilhengerne på.”
(CONNY LARSSON) I was threatened that I would be shot when I should go to Poland. And now one has tried a new tactic, from the Sai movement, and that is to send out meassages about me saying I am a convicted pedophile. They have, so to speak, turned around the entire problematic and say that what Sai Baba is guilty of - pedophilia – is what I am guilty of. I and the other boys who have dared to speak out – it is us who are pedophiles. And they have send this announcement out across the globe. And Sai followers believe it.
242 Men Meyer ville ikke medvirke 00:46:19:13 00:46:23:17
i denne udsendelse.
Meyer would not partake in this investigation.
243 Thorbjörn Meyer, som her kneler foran Sai Baba, tilbød vi at se DR's dokumentation, men han afslog. 00:46:23:20 00:46:31:00
Thorbjørn Meyer, who is here kneeling for Sai Baba, was invited to see DR’s documentation, but he refused.
244 Han har istedet sendt DR et brev der han kalder beskyldningerne udokumenterede og usanne. 00:46:33:22 00:46:40:06
Instead, he sent a letter to DR and called the allegations undocumented and untrue.
245 Vi bad også rejsearrangøren, Lidvin Virkesdal, om å
kommentere anklagerne. 00:46:43:02 00:46:46 22
We also asked the travel leader to comment on the accusations,
246 Men heller ikke han ønskede 00:46:47:00 00:46:51:19
at medvirke i denne del av vår utsendelse.
but neither did he wish to contribute to our broadcast on this matter.
247 I stedet blev vi henvist 00:46:51:22 00:46:56:03
til professor Peter Pruzan fra Handelshøyskolen i København.
We were instead referred to Peter Pruzan, a professor at Copenhagenæs Business High School.
248 Han har gennem mange år 00:46:56:06 00:47:00:02
været en tro Sai Baba tilhænger.
He has been a faithful Sai Baba follower for many years.
249 Hvad er sandhed? De mennesker har 00:47:00:05 00:47:08:04
haft noen oplevelser som de har oplevet i deres hjerner, i deres sinn.
What is the truth? These people have had experiences which they have experienced in their brains, in their minds.
250 De fortæller om ret fysiske 00:47:08:07 00:47:13:12
oplevelser med hensyn til pædofile overgreb.
They tell of direct, physical experiences as regards the pedophile interference.
251 Hvad er sandheden? Jeg påstår ikke, 00:47:13:15 00:47:18:17
at de mennesker lyver -
What is the truth? I am not saying that these people are lying -
252 - at de ikke fortæller, 00:47:18:20 00:47:22:15
hvad de oplever, hva de mente å ha oplevet.
- that they are not telling what they think they have experienced.
253 Der finnes i Jerusalem hundredevis af mennesker - 00:47:22:18 00:47:26:14
In Jerusalem there are hundreds of people
254 - som er på psykiatriske sygehuse, 00:47:26:17 00:47:31:13
som er overbeviste om -
255 - at de har oplevet Jesus. 00:47:31:16 00:47:38: - who are in psychiatric institutions, who are convinced that they have experienced Jesus.
21 Mennesket kan opleve mange ting. Det er ikke mitt ærende å tale med deg om det her.
People can experience many things. It is not my errand here to talk to you about this.
256 Du spørger mig om en reaktion overfor det jeg har sett og hørt,
og det har jeg givet dig. 00:47:38:24 00:47:44:02
You asked me for my reaction to what I have seen and heard, and I have given it.
257 Men du mener, at det her er fullstendig usandt, alt hvad der bliver sagt? 00:47:44:05 00:47:48:14
Do you mean that all that they say is completely untrue?
258 Hvis du spørger mig hva jeg mener - 00:47:48:17 00:47:51:08
If you ask me what I mean-
259 - så mener jeg, at Sai Baba, hans organisasjon 00:47:51:11 00:47:57:04
og hans lære står for kærlighed.
- I would say that Sai Baba, his organisation and his teaching stand for love.
260 Jeg mener det står for et budskab, 00:47:57:07 00:48:04:17
at vi skal være bedre mennesker.
I mean it stands for the message that we should become better people.
261 Det er en organisation, som tager 00:48:04:20 00:48:10:21
udgangspunkt i samfundstjeneste. Det anviser oss veien vi skulle oppleve det.
It is an organisation that bases itself on the service of society. It shows us the way we should experience this.
262 - Men jeg spurte deg, er Sai Baba pædofil? 00:48:10:24 00:48:15:18
- Nej.
- But I asked you if Sai Baba is a pedophile?
- No
263 Vi viste også professor Pruzan billederne, 00:48:16:21 00:48:22:12
der viser Sai Babas trylletricks.
We also showed Professor Pruzan the shots showing Sai Baba’s conjuring tricks.
264 Hvis du spørger mig, om det som Sai Baba gjør er fup, 00:48:22:15 00:48:30:12
så er mit svar helt sikkert nej.
If you ask me whether what Sai Baba does is swindle, my answer is definitely not.
265 Når jeg kan svare på den måde, 00:48:30:15 00:48:37:05
er det, fordi jeg har personlig oplevet det.
I can answer like that because I have experienced it personally.
266 Sai Baba gør ting 00:48:37:08 00:48:44:06
både på materialiseringsplan -
Sai Baba does things, both on the plane of materialisations -
267 - og på andre planer, 00:48:44:09 00:48:50:11
fx med hensyn til helbred og helbredelse -
and on other planes – such as withe respect to health and healing.
268 - som er for meg helt klare vidnesbyrd 00:48:50:14 00:48:56:14
om nogle evner -
- that for me is completely clear evidence of certain powers -
269 - som er udover det, 00:48:56:17 00:49:01:00
som en tryllekunstner har.
- that are beyond what a conjurer has.
270 De oplevelser, jeg har haft, har 00:49:01:03 00:49:07:05
både været i Indien i nærheten av Sai Baba -
Experience that I have had have been both in India in proximity to Sai Baba -
271 - men har sandelig også 00:49:07:08 00:49:10:23
været i mit hjem i Gentofte.
- but have truly also in my home in Gothenburg.
272 De er af en sådan karakter 00:49:11:01 00:49:14:24
og med sådan en styrke -
They are of such a nature and of such power -
273 - at jeg ikke 00:49:15:02 00:49:19:16
er et øjeblik i tvivl om -
that I am not for a moment in doubt of -
274 - ægtheden af disse helt 00:49:19:19 00:49:24:19
ekstraordinære evner.
The authenticity of these wholly extraordinary powers.
275 UNESCO reagerede 00:49:27:23 00:49:31:22
sidste år på anklagerne on pedofili.
UNESCO reacted to the accusations of pedophilia last year.
276 FN-organisasjonen stoppede sin støtte til 00:49:32:00 The United Nations organisation withdrew its support for
en internasjonal konference om undervising i Sai Babas hjemby, Puttaparti. 00:49:39:00
an international conference on education in Sai Baba’s home village, Puttaparti.
277 I en pressemeddelelse skrev 00:49:39:03 00:49:46:21
UNESCO, at man var bekymrede over de mange anklager om seksuelt misbruk av barn og unge.
UNESCO wrote, in a press release, that they were worried about the many allegations of sexual abuse of children and youth.
278 I Danmark derimot ekspanderer bevægelsen 00:49:49:04 00:49:54:11
og vil bygge en internasjonal højskole.
In Denmark, the movement is expanding and wants to build up an international high school.
279 Det er unormalt, at borgerne 00:49:54:14 00:50:00:08
i den grad henvender sig.
It is unusual that citizens approach us to this extent.
280 Jeg har fått masse av brev og e-mails og derutover er jeg blitt krontaktet af utrolig mange mennesker - 00:50:00:11 00:50:03:17
I have had many letters and e-mails and, further, I have been contacted by an incredible number of people -
281 - både af folk, der direkte ringer op, 00:50:03:20 00:50:08:19
men også når jeg har gået i byen og vært forskjellige steder.
- both by people who directly ring me up, but also when I walk about town or been to different places.
282 Folk, der har slået mig på skulderen 00:50:08:22 00:50:14:23
og sagt: ”Det der, det må alltså ikke ske her i Fredriksberg. De der mennesker de må alltså holdes vekk.”
People have clapped me on the shoulder and said ’That there must not happen here in Fredriksberg. Those people there must therefore be kept out.’
283 - I er bange for fremmede? 00:50:15:01 00:50:19:11
- Jeg er ikke bange for fremmede sånn generelt.
- Are you afraid of strangers?
- I am not in general afraid of strangers.
284 Men jeg vil sige, at der er en hel del 00:50:19:14 00:50:24:23
af de her anklager omkring pædofili -
But I want to make clear that there are considerably many of these allegations about pedophilia.
285 - omkring trylleri 00:50:25:01 00:50:29:09
og omkring de økonomiske sammenhænge -
- about conjuring and about financial connections -
286 - som bevægelsen har haft 00:50:29:12 00:50:33:19
svært ved at tilbagevise.
- that the movement has had real problems in refuting.
287 Myndighederne - dvs kirkeministeriet - har blåstemplet 00:50:33:22 00:50:39:16
organisationen som statsanerkjent trossamfund -
The authorities + which is to say the Ministry of Religion - have recognised the organisation as a religious Community recognised by the state -
288 - og dermed givet den 00:50:39:19 00:50:43:13
ret til skattefritagelse.
And have thereby given it the right to tax deduction.
289 (TOVE FERGØ Kirkeminister)Hvis det er sandheden, 00:50:43:16 00:50:48:19
I har dokumenteret...
(TOVE FERGØ Minister of Religion) If it is true that you have documented...
290 Hvis det er rigtigt, at der foregår 00:50:48:22 00:50:54:11
de fuldstændigt meningsløse -
if it is correct that completely meaningless
291 - og umenneskelige 00:50:54:14 00:50:57:24
overgreb på børn -
and inhuman interferences with children -
292 - så er jeg parat til 00:50:58:02 00:51:02:13
at fratage dem deres anerkendelse.
- I am ready to withdraw their recognition.
293 Jeg har lige deltaget i en stor 00:51:02:16 00:51:08:00
internasjonal kongres om seksuelt misbrug af børn.
I have just partaken in a large international congress about the sexual exploitation
Of children.
294 Og hvis vi virkelig mener noget med 00:51:08:03 00:51:12:14
det sluttdokument, vi kom frem til -
And if we really mean anything by the final document we arrived at -
295 - at vi vil bekæmpe seksuelt 00:51:12:17 00:51:17:11
misbrug af børn på alle måder -
- that we will combat sexual exploitation of children in all ways -
296 - så må man kunne få forhindret, 00:51:17:14 00:51:23:15
at børn bliver ødelagt og misbrukt –
then we must stop children being destroyed and abused
297 - og der sker overgreb 00:51:23:18 00:51:27:01
af denne her art.
- and that interferences of this kind occur.
298 I Indien har kritikere svært ved 00:51:28:13 00:51:35:14
at få myndighederne til at innlede undersøgelse mot Sai Baba.
In India, the critics have major difficulty in getting the authorities
to begin to investigate against Sai Baba.
(SANAL EDAMARUKU) The media is scared, basically. For example when the big scandal about SB’s sexual abuse on people. And look at the Indian media. There was only one newspaper from New Delhi which produced the story. People are so afraid, so scared because he is politically powerful and his influence is so real and he can damage if he is criticised. Anybody criticises is eliminated, or attacked or cornered or isolated. Having a press conference on SB’s 70th birthday, the very next day I found that my car parts were removed in the morning so that I could simply make an accident. It could look like a coincidence. Such things happen several times, but we are not afraid. We are not going to be cowed down by that thing. We’re waiting for that time that people come out openly and expose this cheat, the best cheat that times have ever produced.
299 I Puttaparthi er sikkerheden omkring Sai Baba stor. 00:52:31:13 00:52:35:03
The security in Puttaparthi around Sai Baba is tight.
300 I 1993 blev fire unge mænd 00:52:35:06 00:52:39:08
dræbt i hans bolig.
301 De var trængt ind i selve ashramet bevæpnet med kniver 00:52:39:11 00:52:45:10
(CONNY LARSSON) En polis som arbeidet på Puttaparthi på polisstasjonen på den tiden - han berettade för meg at poijkene hadde kommet dit og sagt åt Sai Baba "Nå blir det lite stopp på det her seksuelle voldsfärende )overgrep( mot småbarn. Da låste Sai Baba inn dom - han ble opprörd - låste inn dom, gikk og trykkte på alarmklokkan til polisen. Polisen kom og dom får tilseg av Sai Baba å ta hånd om det her, og dom får hör pojkene opp i Sai Babas soverum och vardagsrum i fyra timmar. Og sen så ansees det av polisen såpass farligt at sleppe ut dom til folket som ventet utanför så polisen helt enkelt avretta dom efter fyra timers forhör
{TRANSLATOR’S COMMENT: NB; THIS IS NOT FULLY CORRECT. IN FACT SIX YOUNG MEN WERE KILLED IN ALL IN HIS APARTMENT. TWO WERE FIRST KILLED BY THE FOUR INTRUDERS}
302 Billedet her af en af de dræbte 00:53:27:19 00:53:32:04
er fra nyhetsmagasinet `India Today`.
This picture of one of the bodies is from the news magazine ’India Today’
303 Larsson kan ikke vite, 00:53:32:07 00:53:35:20
om politimannens version er korrekt.
Larsson cannot tell whether the policeman`s version is correct.
304 Hverken myndigheder eller Sai Baba selv har siden 00:53:35:23 00:53:42:15
offentliggjort, hvad der presis skete i ashramet.
Neither the authorities nor Sai Baba have make known exactly what had happened in the ashram.
305 DR Dokumentar ville gjerne have interviewet Sai Baba selv, 00:53:42:18 00:53:48:18
men fik ingen adgang til guruen.
DR Documentaries would have liked to have interviewed Sai Baba himself, but were not allowed access to the guru.
306 Han har kun en gang offentlig 00:53:48:21 00:53:52:16
kommenteret anklagerne om sex misbruk.
Only once has he publicly commented on the accusations of sexual abuse.
307 Det skete forrige år i hans juletale hvor han beskyldte 00:53:52:19 00:53:58:24
modstanderne for at være kjøpt og betalt til å bakvaske ham.
This occurred last year. He accused his opponents of being paid.
(”SAM”) Some times I feel so stupid because it took me so long to finally come to my senses. Bit I guess the mind - the brain – is like a powerful tool. If you think one thing it’s difficult to change the mind and finally wake up and realise what’s happening.
Gruppepresset i Puttaparti der jeg oftest har vært de 32 gangene, var så enormt. Og alt var så organisert fra hvert minutt, fra kl. 3 om morgene til kl. 9 om kvelden, så man hadde liksom ingen sjanse til å komme unna. Allting var så sterkt strukturert. Det var liksom bare å svelge det hele og så ble vi jo lurt. Vi ble vist Sai Babas gull og glitter og alt hva han hadde gjort, og de sa om døde som hadde stått opp, og lamme som gikk. Det var jo Jesus! Og så sa de jo at han var jo Jesu far, han hadde jo sendt Jesus hit. Og når man så ham, så trodde man at det var slik. Presset var så stort. Tenk deg selv å stiite me 10,000 eller 100,000 eller 500,000 mennesker var det i blant, og alle bare synger hans pris. Det går ikke, det finnes ikke det menneske som kan stå i mot det om man ikke direkte har kommet dit for å se mistenksomt. Men det gjorde jo ikke jeg. Jeg kom dit fordi jeg trengte en far, og Sai Baba oppfyllte alle de kriteriene.
The group pressure in Puttaparti, where I have most often been of the 32 visits, was enormous, and everything was so organised every minute, from three in the morning to nine at night, so one hardly had any chance to get away. Everything was so strongly structured. It was sort of just to swallow it all, and so we were deceived. We were shown Sai Baba`s gold and tinsel and everything he had done, and they spoke about the dead who had arisen, and the lame who had walked. It was Jesus for sure! And then they said that he was jesus’ Father, who had sent jesus here. And when one saw him, one believed that it was like that. The pressure was so great. Imagine yourself sitting with 10,000 or 100,000 or 500,000 people – there were occasionally – and everyone is only singing his praise. It can’t be done, there is no person who can withstand that unless one has gone there purposely due to suspicion. But I did not do that. I came there because I needed a father, and Sai Baba fulfilled all the criteria.